Insurrection in Oregon

Thanks for the history and being candid. I totally agree that this is a dangerous group, and they are playing to other hate-groups that have, since 2008, wanted a civil war in this country to destroy the federal government.

Padre Steve's World...Musings of a Progressive Realist in Wonderland

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Ammon Bundy (Photo the Oregonian) 

Friends of Padre Steve’s World,

It is seldom now that I get this spun up, but I have had it with violent conspiracy theorists using the cover of patriotism to mount an insurrection. Let’s be honest and call what is happening in Oregon what it is. It is armed insurrection and terrorism being perpetrated by extreme right wing, pseudo-Christian, white supremacists, and neo-Nazis. The list of extreme supporters has exploded on the Internet today, and frankly if you actually bother to read something about them even their own materials, they are a violent and dangerous bunch.

Led by Cliven Bundy’s sons Ammon, and Ryan Bundy, and former Army sergeant Ryan Payne who threatened to kill Federal agents during the standoff at the Bundy Ranch in 2014, these people are a threat, not just to society in general, but to the causes that they purport to…

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Posted on 01/04/2016, in Department of Justice, Potpourri, Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 41 Comments.

  1. I was single-mindedly against these guys and ready to write them off as stereotypical nutters, but curiosity impelled me to wonder what their grievance was, anyway? Jacob Sullum wrote a clear explanation that makes sense.
    https://reason.com/blog/2016/01/04/rancher-arson-case-that-inspired-oregon
    It sounds like the father and son rancher team, the Hammonds, got pretty seriously fucked over by the government.

    More importantly, mandatory minimum sentencing is a gross evil that a national organization is dedicated to ending. (Families Against Mandatory Minimums http://famm.org/) The victims of mandatory minimum sentencing are overwhelmingly minority group members, and as their website makes clear, the human cost of the mandatory minimum concept is devastating.

    This is why I feel sad that awareness of the Oregon situation has become so racially divisive. It was my very first knee-jerk reaction – “How differently would this play out if the 150 armed men in that building had dark skin?” And undoubtedly, it would be a lot different. But the overwhelming tide of opinion seems to be “Look what those white people are getting away with” and a thousand memes and posts and tweets point out the discrepancy between, for instance, Tamir Rice being shot on sight for having a toy gun, and these “militia” dudes taking over a building with impunity.

    Yes, the difference in response between this, and a crew of Black Panthers taking over a building, is undoubtedly wrong as can be. But the worst part of that universal reaction against the unfairness is also a blindfold that keeps us from seeing the issue at the root of the protest.

    Mandatory minimum sentencing is from hell, and anybody who is against it should, on some level, even if only for a fleeting moment, be recognized as an ally. And it’s sad that the hyper-excited level of racial tension keeps us from seeing that.

    But wait – there’s more. How about “Hammonds Targeted Because Government Wants to Steal Their Land”? http://www.infowars.com/hammonds-targeted-because-government-wants-to-steal-their-land/. It’s very possible that those white men with guns, regardless of what their failings may be and even regardless of how racist they may be individually or as a group — are right about this. A lot of stuff goes on that shouldn’t be happening to Americans, not even to the type of white Americans that we might not want to be besties with.

    Am I paranoid? Only as paranoid as doing research for some stories about California’s Antelope Valley made me. (Creating Homelessness in the Antelope Valley, Part 1
    http://www.housethehomeless.org/creating-homelessness-in-the-antelope-valley-part-1/ and Part 2 http://www.housethehomeless.org/creating-homelessness-in-the-antelope-valley-part-2/) . An awful lot of underhanded stuff is being done to Americans of every color, by the government that is supposed to represent them and protect their rights.

    Short version: There’s more to this than meets the eye, and the Oregon protesters don’t deserve to be totally demonized. There, I said it.

    Like

    • Hey Pat!
      Minimum sentencing is a nightmare, true. And, protesting grievances against it is a constitutional right. I do not agree however, on how the Bundy clan is going about it. From what I understand, the Hammonds were arrested and convicted for arson on federal land. That is not land that the government is trying to take from them. That group believes that “This land is our land” meaning, that there is no such thing as “federal property.”

      I’m disappointed in many judicial decisions, but taking up guns and occupying federal land is not, in my opinion, the proper response. Minimum sentencing can be challenged through legislation. The Hammonds have rights to appeal their sentencing, I’m sure. That’s the process that others are required to undergo. Maybe the process should be changed, but taking up guns and threatening to use force is not the way.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Yes, they do deserve to be demonized. The Hammonds have stated the terrorist do not represent them or their views. The Oath Keepers refuse to become involved or support them as have other major groups in Oregon including the 3% ers.

      They committed arson TWICE. Firefighters were endangered when their burn went out of control. These guys aren’t protesting what happened to the Hammonds. They want war with our government and have since the fall of 2008.

      If I can’t go stake a claim on Jacksonville Beach because it’s public land, then why should they be able to profit financially off of public land?

      Bundy had 20 years to work out his grievance with the BLM and FAILED.

      Liked by 1 person

    • The Hammonds are not in the same class as the Bundy group.. The Hammonds are due some consideration. and they did not invite the Bundys and their kind. They do NOT WANT the Bundys inserting themselves in this situation as It is Not helpful to their case.

      Liked by 3 people

  2. Dear Xena, I want these criminal trespassers to be arrested and to serve time with a minimal amount of fanfare and media coverage. This tine they will be sojourning in a region which is spartan and forlorn. I wan’t no press conferences by law enforcement. This is a great place to wait these peoples out until they leave on their own accord and then arrest time with no option for bail.

    What I do not want to ever see, would be these wannabes being memorialized in an event like the 1985 Philadelphia fires, Ruby Ridge in 1992 and WACO in 1993. .

    Liked by 5 people

  3. Two sides to a story

    One thing for sure, white privilege is quite alive and well in this situation. Can you imagine any group of black citizens or citizens of other races / cultures, or even young white anarchists (or old hippies, for that matter) arming themselves in any protest or confrontation? We’d all be deader than doornails inside a day or two.

    Liked by 5 people

  4. yahtzeebutterfly

    I agree with you, Xena, that this Bundy group is dangerous, and especially agree with your comment that

    they are playing to other hate-groups that have, since 2008, wanted a civil war in this country to destroy the federal government.

    Liked by 4 people

    • From the article: “So, let’s stop with the wrenching discussions of who they are.

      They are dangerous, they are unforgiving, they are flouting federal law, they have a political purpose and they clearly are willing to use violence to get their way. Simply because they are not Muslim jihadists does not mean they are authorized to threaten or use violence to support their political cause.”

      Liked by 4 people

    • They should be referred to as domestic terrorists.

      Liked by 3 people

  5. yahtzeebutterfly

    Dwight Hammond his son Steven turned themselves in today at a prison in San Pedro, CA.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-ranchers-expected-report-california-prison-amid-armed/story?id=36079385

    Liked by 1 person

  6. yahtzeebutterfly

    Liked by 2 people

    • This is a no brainier. The community and the Hammonds don’t want them. The Hammonds turned themselves in as requested by law enforcement.

      My guess is that the Bundys are looking for a way to bow out as their cause is not gaining traction. This time, they need to be arrested and charged as should have happened with their previous incident.

      Like

  7. Xena, they are scary. How come policemen and federal agaents can’t seem to do anything to these white domestic terrorists ? I wonder what they’d do if their skin color was dark.

    Like

    • Hey Ren,
      Because those folks are on federal land, county and state law enforcement lack jurisdiction to enforce state law. The feds will have to do it. If the militia were people of dark skin, they might have been teargassed by now. Smoke bombs probably would have been used and if the militia decided to fire their weapons, it would probably end up a blood bath.

      Liked by 2 people

  8. I saw this being planned in early 2008 as a threat of what they would do if Obama was elected.

    Liked by 2 people

    • yahtzeebutterfly

      Xena,

      I saw this being planned in early 2008 as a threat of what they would do if Obama was elected.

      What you have pointed out about their attitudes and response to having a Black President of the United States is very important to what is happening now with the Bundy group in Oregon.

      I can assume this is the way the Bundy brothers feel because their father said this:

      Liked by 1 person

      • FAMILY LIFE?!?!?!?? He speaks from ignorance. Once of the worst atrocities of slavery in America was the selling off of children and partners.

        Yes Yahtzee, dear friend. When America elected a mixed-race President who identifies as Black, there were people in America who swore they would either cause a race war before he left office, or take over the federal government.

        Liked by 2 people

  9. There are pictures in the ‘police report’ link on what they did to this child. I wonder if this is why the Oath Keepers won’t get involved, the reputation of the Hammonds.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/04/3735722/meet-the-child-abusing-arsonists-at-the-center-of-the-oregon-militia-standoff/

    Liked by 1 person

  10. The thing is, I had the experience of intensely studying one case where someone was convicted of murder, and then years later exonerated. It was a terrible disillusioning lesson in how badly people can mess up – whether through indifference or with malicious intent. Everyone. Police, lawyers, judges, the press, professional experts, family members, eyewitnesses, lab techs, etc. etc., on down the line. All are fallible and some are purposefully and knowingly deceitful. Any sentence that begins “The government claims….” immediately activates my suspicion.

    That immersion in a single case, what it made me realize is, we will never know the entire story about any event in the news. Two articles about the Hammond family, – the one cited above http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/04/3735722/meet-the-child-abusing-arsonists-at-the-center-of-the-oregon-militia-standoff/ and this other one http://www.dailywire.com/news/2303/here-are-five-reasons-you-should-side-hammond-ben-shapiro#pq=LJoPrS Strip out the identifying details, look at the stories side by side, you’d never guess they were talking about the same people. (There’s another article I can’t find again, that more thoroughly paints the Hammonds as the salt of the earth, backbone of America, etc.) The point is, a lot of different things can be true at the same time, of the same person or people. That’s what makes life so interesting.

    The teenage boy DH sounds like a troubled kid maybe, from that one article. On the other hand, a lot of people would say what the hell, they were trying to keep the kid from drinking and smoking! And congratulate the older Hammonds for being so strict. Though I have to say, making a teenage boy walk ten miles, as a punishment, is not real impressive in the atrocity sweepstakes. If they sandpapered initials off his skin, that sucks – but whether we like it or not, it’s totally irrelevant to the matters at hand here.

    The child abuse angle doesn’t even have a place in this discussion. In another discussion, sure. But however badly some family members may treat other family members, the bottom line is, that is a whole different and separate matter. It’s like if you got a parking ticket with an extra fine tacked on because you returned a library book late. Not related, doesn’t belong there. It’s like the people who say Kendrick Johnson’s parents shouldn’t sue anybody, because he lived with his grandma. It just doesn’t belong as part of this particular argument.

    And then there’s the matter of how the government is trying to take the Hammonds’ land so the govt is an awful thief, And the opposite story about how the Hammonds have been getting a sweet deal using government land, so they are awful thieves. And so on. There’s complicated stuff here that really would take quite a lot of time and effort to get a handle on.

    And then, regardless of rights and wrongs of the land use, etc. step back and look at the bigger picture. These people are raising beef cattle, and that’s one of the things ruining the earth. Cow farts = methane = destruction of the ozone layer = global warming. It takes almost 2,000 gallons of precious, irreplaceable water to produce one pound of edible beef. Meat is very bad for people’s health, and then they go ahead and pump it full of antibiotics that destroy the microbiomes of humans, and wind up in the groundwater and encourage the development of horrible, antibiotic-resistant bacteria that actually kill a lot of people. Nobody should eat it. And any animal raised to be slaughtered is, by definition, a victim of inexcusable abuse. For participating in this hellish industry, the Hammonds should be punished severely and universally hated – or at the very least, nobody should give a damn about their problems because they make their living by doing something very harmful and wrong.

    Oh, really? Good Americans could refute all those accusations and prove that the Hammonds are the most virtuous people alive.

    Then, you can step back and look at the even bigger picture, as many have done. If we’re going to get serious about who owns land and who gets to use land and who has the rights to the land, there really is no alternative other than give it back to the Indians.

    Like

    • yahtzeebutterfly

      Pat,

      I prefer to cut to the chase and point out the fact that this Bundy group is heavily armed and plans to shoot if Fed LE tries to remove them from the federal facility.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Pat,
      I appreciate your research and your reminding readers to stay on focus. My focus is that there are people with guns occupying federal land.

      Like

  11. yahtzeebutterfly

    “LDS Church condemns seizure of Oregon federal facilities by militia citing Mormon beliefs”
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865644791/LDS-Church-condemns-seizure-of-Oregon-federal-facilities-by-militia-citing-Mormon-beliefs.html?pg=all

    Excerpt:

    ALT LAKE CITY — LDS Church leaders on Monday plainly and roundly denounced a militia whose organizers cited Mormon scriptures in the months before they seized a federal facility in Oregon on Saturday.

    “While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a church matter,” the church said in a statement, “church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land.”

    Ammon and Ryan Bundy, who are Mormons, are leading a hastily organized militia group of 15 in an occupation of the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Burns, Oregon. The group is protesting the treatment of two ranchers in the eastern Oregon area.

    The ranchers did not request the brothers’ help.

    In November, the Bundys’ mother, Carol, sent an email that used a Book of Mormon term — “a type and a shadow” — to predict future suffering at the hands of the federal government if people didn’t stand up to support the ranchers, Dwight Hammond, 73, and his son Steven Hammond, 46.

    Ammon Bundy, who lives in Phoenix, sent an email quoting a verse in the Doctrine & Covenants, “Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.”

    A BYU political science professor rejected the Bundys’ use of Mormon scripture.

    “This is a very selective reading and interpretation and contrary to gobs of counsel from church leaders,” said Quin Monson, who has studied the LDS Church and politics and helped conduct a definitive survey of Mormon political attitudes.

    Like

  12. I don’t know about the source, but it’s being reported that the feds are set to turn off power and block roads.

    http://www.occupydemocrats.com/feds-set-to-cut-off-militias-public-power-public-roads-and-public-phone-line/

    Like

  13. yahtzeebutterfly

    NEWS JAN 5 2016, 10:42 PM ET
    ‘I Need to Get Home’: Oregon Occupiers Hint at Exit Plan
    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-occupiers-hint-exit-plan-n490796

    Like

  14. yahtzeebutterfly

    Liked by 1 person

  15. yahtzeebutterfly

    Liked by 1 person

  16. yahtzeebutterfly

    Like

  17. yahtzeebutterfly

    “Oregon native tribe uncomfortable with armed standoff over land rights”
    http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-native-tribe-uncomfortable-armed-standoff-over-land-131243928.html

    Like

  18. yahtzeebutterfly

    Idaho militia group arrive to ‘secure perimeter, prevent Waco-style situation’ at Oregon refuge”
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/9/idaho-militia-group-arrive-secure-perimeter-preven/

    “Oregon standoff: Militants used federal computers, saw employee data, report says”
    http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/post_230.html

    Like

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