Waco Texas Bikers Indicted

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Remember this photo of bikers in Waco, Texas? 177 of them were arrested. On Tuesday, a grand jury returned indictments against 106 of them for engaging in organized criminal activity.

It took the grand jury 9 hours to reach the decision on the 106 bikers. District Attorney Abel Reyna said that the grand jury will return to consider charges against the other 71 bikers.

Nine people died and 20 were injured, which authorities say arose from an apparent confrontation between the Bandidos and the Cossacks motorcycle clubs. More than 430 weapons were recovered from the crime scene, including 151 firearms. No one has been charged in the deaths and injuries because investigators cannot determine whose bullets struck those who died or were injured.

 

Posted on 11/12/2015, in Cases and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 79 Comments.

  1. Bullshit. It’s already been determined that the majority of those deaths were caused by COPS firing into the crowd. Where are THEIR indictments??

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hey Cielo! Can you provide a link or reference otherwise where it’s been determined that the majority of the deaths were caused by LE firing into the crowd? I have read snippets saying that LE did fire, so would be interested in knowing about the determination.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. chuquestaquenumber1

    I remember certain right wing websites that said they were unjustly arrested,the police Did all the shooting,bikers were being profiled,dismissive of threats to LEOs,etc. By The way these right wing websites wouldn’t have taken the same position if this was Bloods,Crops,Black Guerrilla Family. Now you have the video that shows ONLY white biker gangs(not cops) engaging in shootouts,now we have 106 indictments. Of course,these right wing websites aren’t doing follow-up articles.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Chuquest, you make a good point with the comparison. While I was looking for videos about the incident last night, guess what I found? Briebart has one supporting the bikers. I didn’t watch it. LOL! There are conspiracy theories circulating that the bikers were set-up by LE. There is also a video showing the purported autopsy findings of those killed, saying that at least 2 were shot in the head. I was unable to find a news report that mentioned the autopsies, but will look some more.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. Yep………….nothing says “Bad Ass Biker” like crawling on your hands and knees with a Mohawk haircut…………nothing. Well, of course on the other hand, nothing spells “Stupid Ass Biker” like thinking you can flush a semi automatic pistol down a Texas Toilet.

    You’re spot on csn1……..even though these are hardened criminals, the right wing clowns won’t go down that road. Naaaaaaaa……..

    And I’m waiting for the NRA to start that garbage that they are getting blamed for what non NRA members did (wanna bet half of those bikers are members) and the ones who didn’t have guns would be alive if they did have guns and the same old blah, blah, boring blah……..

    Liked by 2 people

    • Racer,
      The gun in the toilet raises questions about Texas gun laws. Shouldn’t there be a number on the gun that identifies who purchased it? Are gun owners not required to register guns in Texas? Putting it in the toilet was a stupid move. It seems that investigators should be able to match the bullets from the deceased and wounded with that gun.

      Liked by 1 person

      • All guns have a serial number and that will tell who purchased it. If it was stolen, which must be reported, then anything goes, but no matter, a bullet match is a bullet match.

        So if Biker Bob bought it and was in a gun fight and recovered bullets match, he’s on the hook for it.

        Trying to flush it down the toilet must have been a normal thing since he’s probably flushed only God knows how many drugs when someone knocked on the door.

        Hey…………….just sayin’…………

        Liked by 1 person

        • Hey Racer,
          That is what I was thinking about the serial numbers. If the bullets are not being matched to confiscated guns, I wonder if it is because those bullets came from the weapons of LE? Still, tossing a gun in the toilet indicates that it had been fired. It was indeed, not a one-side fire-fight.

          Liked by 1 person

          • If they don’t go to the effort to see what rounds came from what gun and what direction, then there is an agenda. I’ll have to look at the videos and see some more details, but this one is going to get interesting, that is, if they don’t try to sweep most of if under the carpet with that “……..it’s just to difficult to determine who shot at who from what direction and who was aiming at who and……..blah, blah, boring blah”

            Like

    • Thank you!

      Like

  4. Two sides to a story

    There apparently were some bikers unjustly arrested and are being unjustly prosecuted. I’m no big fan of gun-toting bikers, but just saying. Just as law enforcement discriminates against minorities, so they also unfairly target white bikers and others not to their liking.

    The law doesn’t always discriminate well between perps and non-perps in big group situations like these. There were apparently also some shots fired by cops and injuries caused by cops being blamed on bikers. So I think this situation is probably far more complicated than is being reported by mainstream media. It’s easy for the system to make these folk look like trash.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Wait! I got a question??
      If you join a biker gang
      (not a “bike club”, altho they like to call it a “club”), one with a long elaborate initiation, the sort where breaking the law, either with violence and/or gun or drug dealing, is mandatory to even be considered for membership, how can you be unjustly arrested after a violent deadly gang war?

      I think most of us have seen the documentary ” Inside the world of scaryass Biker Gangs” think it was on PBS?
      I mean these aren’t the Toys for Tots type of biker club, these are organized criminal gangs. Hardcore violent killers & rapists.

      Like

      • I need to share something personally. I’m the only woman ever allowed to DJ at a certain biker’s club. My first visit, I was shocked, yet surprised. It was a club as in “private” and it served food. If anyone came in hungry without money, they fed them anyway. When they were finished eating, they escorted them out. In the back rooms however, were crazy things happening. It was club that didn’t allow the use of drugs in the open. It was also a club where the police and entertainers came in and spent time — even in the back rooms.

        Were their gangsters in that “club”? For sure. But, it wasn’t street crime. Since the majority of them were getting up in age, if they still exist now, they are probably sitting around playing checkers. They did help each other maintain and fix bikes. I heard many stories of what they did when they were young. Their strongest rule was that no one mess with their women.

        Liked by 1 person

        • I don’t know what that was, maybe a biker club?
          But in this case these are hard core bangers. Drugs aren’t even the biggest racket. Altho some have been really involved in meth, but those are usually low level members getting busted in undercover stings and staring on “Cops!”

          These ppl are LITERALLY ALL murderers & rapists, NO EXCEPTIONS! Kidnappings, human trafficking- men, women & children! You have to do those things to be in these gangs.
          These are not Daytona Bike week bikers just lugging a pound of weed down to party with. They’re not cool, charming TV star looking, good old boy bikers, helping a brother fix his bike shit.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Not sure about the documentary, but know for a fact Hells Angels has members who support Toys for Tots they also do rides for other charities like Boggy Creek Gang Camps …. They are still one of the top ranked gangs for violence and mayhem. Boggy Creek needed some kids to show up at event so we went not realizing Harley Davidson sponsored event would have gang members riding with their colors. Wouldn’t surprise me if the Bandidos and Cossacks could line up hundreds of people to talk about members good deeds too…humans are full of contradictions.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Two sides to a story

    PS – I rather doubt the ACLU would be involved if there weren’t some compelling legal discrimination issues involved in this case.

    http://www.kcentv.com/story/29305481/aclu-of-texas-demands-answers-from-waco-police

    Liked by 3 people

    • Hey Two sides! Hmmm. The ACLU is also requesting information involving the police in McKinney. I think this is bending in the direction of looking at possible police abuse.

      Liked by 2 people

    • roderick2012

      Raja was also fired from his instructor position at a local college.

      Now he has all the free time he wants to patrol for car burglars.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Roderick,
        HAHAHA! Have you heard whether charges are being considered against him?

        Liked by 1 person

        • roderick2012

          Well, a few days after Jones was killed ago there was a rally outside the State Attorney’s office requesting that SA Dave Aronberg to request that Aronberg recuse himself and appoint a Special Prosecutor but he refused so I think we know where this is headed.

          Like

          • Roderick,
            Oh my. Yes, we know where that is headed.

            Like

            • roderick2012

              What I don’t understand is why did Raja use his personal gun to shoot Jones and why did he use his personal phone to call 911? Was he moonlighting at the time while using a police van? Maybe we will find out sooner than later.

              Like

            • Roderick,
              They have now found that Corey’s phone records show that he was on the phone with AT&T’s roadside assistance when he was fatally shot.
              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/church-drummer-corey-jones-nouman-raja-fired_5644e57be4b0603773482efe

              I don’t think that Raja was actually on duty when he decided to investigate the stopped vehicle.

              Like

            • roderick2012

              But someone from the police department stated that Raja was on undercover assignment at the hotel adjacent to the off-ramp and that he didn’t call in before he left the stakeout.

              Right Cory was ten minutes into his call to roadside assistance when Raja shot him (according to Raja he shot Corey at approximately 3:15 a.m. which makes me think since Corey was left-handed and Corey was probably standing close to the driver’s door Raja mistook his phone for a gun. It doesn’t make sense to me that Corey would be holding both is phone and gun unless he panicked when he saw Raja and grabbed his gun without hanging up the phone which didn’t disconnect from roadside assistance until almost 4 a.m.

              The PBG PD made a big deal out of Corey’s gun and even implied that Corey was either inexperienced or was gung ho about using it when they stated that Corey bought the gun three days before the shooting.

              Of course the police always use the typical victim-blaming narrative.

              Liked by 2 people

            • Roderick,

              “Of course the police always use the typical victim-blaming narrative.

              Yes. Same story, different day. In this case, it’s one that has unbalanced scales. Raja looked like a civilian. Corey had the right to be afraid and want to protect himself, if that is indeed what he did.

              Like

  6. This case is a problem for everyone. Reading these comments is a disappointment vs the usual fare found here.

    These indictments have nothing to do with the murders, they amount to prosecuting a church congregation as sinners. SMH at folks celebrating these arrests because they look white ….by the same folks who cry racism when POC are arrested and prosecuted by the same bogus standards. If this had been a music event where a murder occurred and they arrested everyone and then validated those arrests via grand jury indictments that had nothing to do with the murder they were investigating?

    Like

    • Lurking,
      Did you read anything in the post about race?
      If you read a comment by someone that brings up race, please direct that comment to them. We are, after all, individuals.

      Also, please note that the indictments are not for the murders and wounding. Prosecutors allege organized criminal activity. I don’t know enough about the background of each club to know if there was bad blood against them before that gathering.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Lol seems yesterday was a day for short tempers and ruffled feathers.

        For the record … The disappointment wasn’t the content of the comments it was the absence of usual fare IG encouraging respect for humanity regardless of the book cover. IG comments re ACLU involvement and others that occurred between ‘join the discussion’ and ‘post comment’ while I was fending off hours of real life in my face verbal attacks claiming I only cared about Waco because they’re white and it helps me feel better about my white privilege. My daughters peer thought that an appropriate response to picking up my tablet and seeing what I was doing which was none of her business to begin with. I was literally shaking my head sad and frustrated at enduring that and my neighbor in tears apologizing to me for this girl with gratitude for tolerant perseverance vs trying to get through this kid’s raging mad.

        Moving on I did read comments that included racial references. They didn’t offend me.

        ” Now you have the video that shows ONLY white biker gangs(not cops) engaging in shootouts,now we have 106 indictments. Of course,these right wing websites aren’t doing follow-up articles.”

        Without that vent I might have not have recognized the opportunity conservative sites are missing to to address the issues they raised. Hopefully they will support the ACLU efforts going forward wherever, whenever and whoever faces the same bogus tactics.

        “Chuquest, you make a good point with the comparison. While I was looking for videos about the incident last night, guess what I found? Briebart has one supporting the bikers. I didn’t watch it. LOL! There are conspiracy theories circulating that the bikers were set-up by LE.”

        That video is heartening, please look beyond the conspiracies to what I’m seeing. This event is sensational because of the number of people the police detained, arrested and presented evidence enmass to garner indictments….Using the same tactics behind fill in the blank ‘…….while black’

        These gangs have a notorious history of violence…still doesn’t justify nine hours for 106 indictments vs the norm of two in that time.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Lurking,
          I’m sorry you had a bad day. Sorry too that I don’t know what “IG” means. We are not the best informed social media acronym people on this blog. LOL!

          Yes, I commented about comparisons because when Waco happened, we were witnessing military style operations on protesters. (Maybe the St. Louis police should be in Paris tonight. They would enter that theater and tear gas everybody.)

          Kidding aside, you make a good and important point;

          This event is sensational because of the number of people the police detained, arrested and presented evidence enmass to garner indictments….Using the same tactics behind fill in the blank ‘…….while black’

          An injustice against anyone is an injustice against everyone. We hear too often that people will get a fair trial by a jury of their peers and to paraphrase, all the belly-aching and crying about unjust arrests is playing the race card. We have heard that if people (particularly minorities) don’t want to get in trouble with the law, then they should obey the law. All kinds of assumptions and prejudices are displayed in social media comments to justify injustices. The most disturbing is the one that says someone deserved to die. If the alleged crime was committed and the person stood trial, the penalty would not be death. That shows us that people focus on the person or persons involved, more than they do the rule of law.

          This situation with the Waco bikers brings another perspective. It is one that asks, was law enforcement right when arresting people without first determining probable cause? Very early on, when the Zimmerman trial was pending, I did a comparison of the Trevor Dooley case with the George Zimmerman case. I focused on the rule of law. I did not include race in that comparison. Although Dooley tried removing himself from the situation, the prosecutor in Dooley’s case drove-home the initial aggressor portion of self-defense law. The jury convicted Dooley. It was Chuquest who brought to my attention that I left race out of the report and that it played an important part in the Dooley trial and would also in the Zimmerman trial.

          I did not want to believe that because in my realm of the world, the law is the law and justice is blind. I was wrong. In Zimmerman’s trial, Judge Nelson did not allow the initial aggressor portion of the law to be included in the jury instructions. There goes the law that applies to the facts of the case.

          Regarding Waco, is it possible for people in general to look at the arrests, probable cause, etc., and not at race to focus on whether the arrests were proper? I do not know. Is it possible for people in general who support law enforcement, in all cases where deadly force was used, to change their position this time around and say law enforcement was wrong? I do not know.

          Liked by 4 people

          • Ty Xena hopefully the girls get over their feelings quicly to resume their study group. They have a lot in common as single mothers, working students set to graduate in Spring trying to decide if they should go for Nurse Practictioner or accept offers in hand for a paycheck.

            As peers their common experiences are eerily similar to anyone willing to ignore the elephant in the room…. racial…ethnic and cultural origins.

            The ideal of blind justice is a myth! It’s unreasonable to expect anyone involved in a criminal case ….including and especially the peanut gallery of interested spectators to look at racial, ethnic and cultural differences as something to be considered as if it’s turkey bacon bought special to acknowledge accepting an Italian lamb shanks dinner.

            When it comes to the Zimmerman trial and other cases that hit before 2014 I’m at a loss because it’s my nature to shun social media. We lived in Volusia CTy for 15 years so some gossipy snippets about people pinch hitting for their Seminole counterparts came my way. These cases fall into …it’s best to listen and learn vs spew bullshit like my friend was working at the jail blah blah blah.

            The rising death toll in Paris with closed borders seems like a temptation for undivided attention until the reality that some will condone whatever message these terrorists try to justify this with ….and how many would justify using Waco tactics as a means to find the terrorists. Having used the mixer at a music event last night it seems surreal tonight to wonder how many concert attendees are in the same boat as Waco bikers last spring or residents in every major U.S. city tonight…criminalized.

            IG alternately ie is abbreviation ‘for example’

            Like

            • Hey Lurking.
              Re:

              When it comes to the Zimmerman trial and other cases that hit before 2014 I’m at a loss because it’s my nature to shun social media.

              I came to the internet in 2012 because of the Zimmerman case. We had a local situation and the “natives” asked why were outsiders coming in telling them what to do. Well, because insiders were covering-up. I heard the same tone coming from Sanford, FL. Originally, I heard of it on television. I was not on the internet for news and knew very little about social media. When I came to the internet, I started off in the comment section of Yahoo news. The comments were so mean-spirited and they played so many games, that I began looking for blogs.

              Re:

              IG alternately ie is abbreviation ‘for example’

              Thanks. “i.e.” in legalese is “that is” or “on the other hand.” “e.g” is used for “for example.” With text messaging and short-cuts on social media, the meaning of acronyms seem to change based on the user.

              About the elephant in the closet, I could do a post on that subject. In fact, I did that back in 2013 by presenting the movie, “The Well.” It has a real balanced perspective.

              Liked by 2 people

    • I think your comparison is false. Biker Gangs are not the same as “Tupac” Concert attendees.

      What’s similar between a couple of violent criminal gangs and a bunch of random individuals going to a concert?

      Most of the (hypothetical) concert goers went to hear music.
      So they’d have no reason to think strangers at the concert would decide to have a shoot out.
      And if anyone’s like me, they might be hope there’s at least a few generous “criminals” there passing the dobbies around.

      But Biker gangs aren’t regular concert goers. They went to be biker gangs and do biker gang banger stuff. Or they wouldn’t have gone to the same place together, wearing their “colors” and packing hundreds of guns.

      A real comparison would be Biker Gang War & Street Gang War.

      I look at this case exactly the same way i’d look at it if it were a couple of street gangs that got into a deadly “melee,”
      They did so together, as gangbangers. We’ve all heard of gang wars between the Street Gangs. That’s what they’re saying this was; Biker Gang War.

      Gangs are gangs. They’re all organizations based on criminality.

      Would you be as sympathetic if 106 Bloods & Crips indicted instead of 106 Biker Gangbangers?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Shannon I made no comparisons, I offered two analogies. There was no assumption about music genre the references were simply about a large crowd gathered.

        “Would you be as sympathetic if 106 Bloods & Crips indicted instead of 106 Biker Gangbangers?”

        Yes, it makes no difference to me whether it’s these two bike gangs or if the Mexican Cartel and a Chicago gang meeting to discuss territory resulted in nine deaths.

        These 106 aren’t the gang members arrested on outstanding warrants or prior investigations into specific individuals actions those are among the remaining unindicted arrestees. They grabbed everyone and charged them under the organized crime statutes which compromises the legitimate cases. That pisses me off as a miscarriage of justice.

        What would happen if LA, Chicago or Baltimore police arrested every gang member they could round up on organized crime charges with $1,000,000 bail for drive by shootings? Would you be okay if the Grand Jury’s allowed five minutes for each defendant to validate those arrests with an indictment?

        How many rightful investigations into roberry, burglary, rape, murder etc. were dropped in other jurisdictions because suspects were in jail charged, indicted under these charges? That’s a scary thought.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Analogies are comparisons.

          And you made your entire comment about race when you referenced the same ppl who “cry about racism” (which sounds gross & dismissive, as if racism isn’t something to cry about)

          And rounding up & arresting every gang member in Chicago for a single drive-by isn’t anything like what cops did in this case, they weren’t even there.
          Again false analogy.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Analogies present similarities to clarify, Comparisons present contrasts to differentiate.

            I’m good with you being pissed I made a racial comment. To clarify I made my comment about race prior to your assertion with “SMH at folks celebrating these arrests because they look white…”

            I’m not so good with this being the the second time you have assigned your assumptions to my comment as justification for your characterization of things I did not say or imply.

            I did not mention genre of music nor did I imply gang members who were not present were rounded up.

            Waco was a gang meeting where INDIVIDUALS were arrested and indicted without an investigation or probable cause for the charges brought.

            This situation is even more bogus than January 2014 when NYC touted 100+ gang arrests or the warrant sweeps at homeless shelters they are famous for. Jan 2014 in one breathe police said four years of investigation, in the next response to a specific murder and both backed by isolated Facebook posts. My guess is you wouldn’t be okay if those arrests had the five minute per defendant organized crime indictments attached before or after the arrests.

            Liked by 1 person

  7. scrodriguez

    I remember seeing a youtube video where someone made the argument that there was no shoot out just cops killing bikers. his proof in that was based on the headshots all of them shot to the head he assumed by snipers.

    What he failed to realize is one of the bikers was a retired cop and several of them served in the Armed Forces and being that they were likely licensed to carry that means they hit the shooting range every now and then but nahhh lets have a conspiracy theory to make it appear that a group of bikers split up over several known biker gangs were just innocent bystanders and were gunned down by police

    if you believe that nonsense I have a bridge to sell you, the Banditos are a well known Biker gang and are one of the most violent Biker gangs in the nation…… I find it funny how the people who are complaining about this here and calling it an ambush from the cops are the same ones who supported the cops in shooting Tamir Rice

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hey Santiago! I’m interested in how the Texas criminal system is going to conduct trials based on the charge of organized criminal activity. Did they know something was planned for that gathering to result in the carnage?

      Liked by 2 people

      • scrodriguez

        well look at how many different gangs were there obviously they had under covers there which is why I believe LE became aware of it.

        Liked by 1 person

  8. ANNOUNCEMENT

    I’ve just become aware that some people are submitting comments without first signing into their Word Press account. The comments are going into the spam folder. Sorry for the inconvenience.

    Like

  9. yahtzeebutterfly

    Nov. 1 CNN article with more detail:

    “CNN video shows Waco, Texas biker gangs shootout”
    (video is graphic…with more clarity)
    http://ksn.com/2015/11/01/cnn-video-shows-waco-texas-biker-gangs-shootout/

    “CNN”s Ed Lavandera walks viewers through the video, as well as never-before-released details from the police report. And he reports on why some defense attorneys say this might actually help prove their clients are innocent. We should warn you, some viewers will find the graphic images in the attached video disturbing.”

    Liked by 2 people

    • Yahtzee,
      I’ve tried watching the video several times, but traffic to it must be busy because the circle continues to turn and the video doesn’t play. Thanks for the link. I’ll keep trying.

      Like

      • yahtzeebutterfly

        Xena,

        It is available now with no heavy traffic.

        Like

        • Thanks Yahtzee. I watched. Now I see what the controversy is over the arrests. It sounds as if the people who were hiding from getting shot, and who did not participate in the melee were arrested. Those shots to the head that went top to bottom raise questions. Were the guys bending to avoid being shot? Were they shot by a very, very tall person? Or, was someone physically up, as in a tree or top of a building, taking aim at heads?

          The guy on video shooting towards the parking lot causes me to reflect on the one witness that said there were not that many Cossacks and they were on the patio when the shooting started. I can’t imagine anyone taking a pot shot with their club members in the parking lot.

          Liked by 2 people

          • “those shots to the head that went top to bottom raise questions”

            How so? Clearly those sort of head shots, going straight down, could only have occurred while the Biker was charging at the shooter. Don’t So it’s self defense.

            Like

            • Accidentally pressed send on that comment before I was done.

              But I think everyone will remember where I got my “charging” conclusion.
              I haven’t seen the video yet because I’m on my phone so I have no info or reference to base that on. I also have no doubt NO ONE was “charging” at a shooter when they were shot in the top of the head. I’m just wondering if we’ll hear ANYONE making that claim in any of these murders… I’ll be waiting.

              Like

            • Shannon,
              LOL! That top of the head shot from 30 yards away was really self-defense. Got it! Well, no one has been charged with murder, yet. The investigators said that they haven’t determined who fired the bullets. They have over 100 guns to examine — no mention of LE’s firearms, however.

              Liked by 2 people

  10. Hey Xena, reply button wasn’t coming up.

    “About the elephant in the closet, I could do a post on that subject. In fact, I did that back in 2013 by presenting the movie, “The Well.” It has a real balanced perspective.”

    Just tasked hubby with the movie….title reused. Reviews for 2014 movie vs two academy awards for 1951 version, ironic 🙂

    I think a lot of people would like the elephant to reside in the closet vs accepting the fact that the elephant earned it’s seat in the room. The more people try to shove the elephant of fear/mistrust into the closet by denying it’s validity the bigger it grows.

    Coming back to Waco…the gun in the toilet image has me asking what happened to the early narrative that the shooting started in bathroom?

    Liked by 1 person

    • It’s the 1951 movie. Did they remake it in 2014? I’ll have to take a look. 🙂

      The reason I use “closet” instead of room is because the subject is often discussed in a manner where people send out messages by process of elimination. It’s like saying, “I have a friend who is gay” without saying “but I hate other gays.” The gay person in the room catches on, but others say he is paranoid. So, the discussion never validates what the gay person hears.

      I love Jane Elliot because she takes that elephant and presents the entire body.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Seemed like just the title was reused not the subject matter. He found the 1951 movie on Amazon before our plans for the evening. Hasn’t found it on any we have subscriptions to yet but will or make an Amazon acct.

        Discussion doesn’t need to validate what the gay heard to be true, hence idea that the elephant earned it’s seat in the room despite attempts to shove it back in the closet and/or pretend the exception discounts the rule. Either or both attempts is like feeding the elephant.

        Like

        • Lurking,
          Here’s hoping your hubby gets “The Well.” It’s a movie before its time.

          “Discussion doesn’t need to validate what the gay heard to be true,…

          What people share must be validated that it’s true for them. We don’t have to agree with them, but we must accept that what they share is true for them. To do otherwise is to disrespect their experience. It would be like a man telling a woman in labor that she is not in pain. It’s her real experience. She is going to give birth no matter what he disbelieves, and in the end, he’s the one not served a benefit of knowledge of the experience a woman has while in labor. Without validation, it’s not discussion but rather, argument.

          Given, there are two different types of validation. Some people do evil to get an evil response, which serves to validate, for them, that they are right about people. That’s not the type of validation I’m speaking about.

          Liked by 1 person

          • “It would be like a man telling a woman in labor that she is not in pain. It’s her real experience. ”

            Exactly! The absence of his affirmation or validation doesn’t change her reality. Any argument he presents to convince her it isn’t so just compounds the labor pain with the burden of the argument. Some women might go beyond entertaining thoughts and actually kick this man in the testes with the misguided idea his pain would result in him validating hers, it won’t but there is more pain in the room.

            He will never know the reality of labor, she will never know teste pain. Whether they deepen their connection with recognition …affirming validation or create distance with denial or distortion etc. their pain (experience) is real.

            When you mentioned Jane Elliott earlier I got excited thinking she was in the movie before she became a teacher.

            Like

            • Lurking,
              Re:

              “He will never know the reality of labor, she will never know teste pain. Whether they deepen their connection with recognition …affirming validation or create distance with denial or distortion etc. their pain (experience) is real.”

              Which means they each need to validate the experience of the other. Without validating that the experience of the other is real, there will be no resolve and thus, the elephant remains in the closet.

              Liked by 1 person

            • yahtzeebutterfly

              Lurking,

              “Exactly! The absence of his affirmation or validation doesn’t change her reality.”

              What it tells her is that she can’t trust him to care about her and her suffering…that he will offer no support or understanding.

              Liked by 1 person

            • yahtzeebutterfly

              Xena,

              “Without validating that the experience of the other is real, there will be no resolve and thus, the elephant remains in the closet.”

              I agree with you.

              Like

      • yahtzeebutterfly

        Here is the trailer to the movie “The Well”

        Liked by 1 person

        • Yahtzee, thanks for the trailer. BlushedBrown found the full movie on Youtube back when I planned the blog based on it. It was then mysteriously deleted from Youtube. I’ve discovered that about several other videos after embedding them. It keeps me busy looking for replacements or editing posts.

          Liked by 1 person

  11. If the goal was losing a follower with the persistent tomato tomatoe game mission accomplished.

    Like

    • Lurking,
      Sorry you feel that way. As blog administrator, I generally only intervene when personal attacks are made — not disagreements. I had to go back and read the exchange to see what happened and what makes you upset.

      Now, correct me if I’m mistaken but weren’t you the one who told Shannon there is a difference between an “analogy” and “comparison”? Did she not have the right to respond? Did Yahtzee not have the right to give the definitions that I find to be a benefit to us all?

      Apples and oranges, semantics — whatever. That’s what happens when you say that arresting the bikers in Waco was the same as if the people at a rock concert in Paris were all arrested. What Shannon presented is that there’s a difference between attending a rock concert, and showing up at a bikers’ gathering with knives, brass knuckles and guns. That should have been the focus.

      Sorry for the hurt feelings.

      Liked by 1 person

      • It wasn’t the exchange with Shannon nor my feelings that were hurt. Aneela (daughter’s peer) stripped any illusions I had of mutual respect when she read the comments.

        You did intervene and rightfully so. Then my response contained IG. You’d have served everyone better referencing the urban dictionary than the schooling games played.

        Translation confusion between IG as ignorant and damn autocorrect of I.g. (For example, incomplete list….alternately ie such as) to IG is expected as are questions seeking clarity. I’ll assume assigning tomato tomatoe to the exchange with Shannon vs our ongoing exchange re the elephant in room or closet was merely a continuation of proving just how ignorant I am.

        I have no shame in my ignorance to your experience, nor my choice to seek a better understanding elsewhere.

        Like

        • yahtzeebutterfly

          Lurking,

          “Then my response contained IG. You’d have served everyone better referencing the urban dictionary”

          I went to the Urban dictionary and was unable to find the meaning you are submitting.
          Would you be so kind as to help me by providing the link that we should be examining?

          Liked by 1 person

        • yahtzeebutterfly

          Lurking, I feel Xena has been very professional and gracious in her comments with you during your discussions on this page.

          Xena is a very thoughtful and caring person.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Id say Xena has exercised a great deal of decorum and agree Xena is a thoughtful and caring person nothing I said was intended to indicate otherwise. I hope if you have cause to recall my time here I’ll be remembered for my better qualities as well.

            It’s the Internet and the elephant of mistrust can’t be unfed regardless of whether it resides in the closet or the room.

            google search ‘define IG’

            Liked by 1 person

            • Lurking,
              Re:

              “It’s the Internet and the elephant of mistrust can’t be unfed regardless of whether it resides in the closet or the room.”

              Oh Lurking, I think by the fact that you came here disputes that. Maybe we should let others in into how you and I met.

              It was several months ago on the flightattendantfailures blog that I started in response to a group of White Supremacist internet extortioners. It turns out that a person who was intentionally called by that group to assist them caused people on the other side of the fence, so to speak, harm by doxing, threatening, and posting their personal information on the internet. People on both sides reached across the aisle to support each other and seek a lawful way to resolve the problem.

              I don’t think that any of us fooled ourselves to think that we could discuss social issues from our positions and so, we haven’t. You came here and submitted a comment. Had I not trusted you, not even your first comment would have been publicly posted.

              Given, there are many other posts on this blog that do not raise social issues, and you were free to comment on them if you wanted to keep things friendly without possibility of rocking the boat. For me, it indicated that you have opinions that you want to share, and so you did in a decent manner. However, it might have been better from your position to stay with the cause that we have in common, because your comments on this thread came across as a reprimand and then progressed to thinking that you unsubscribing would hurt me in some way.

              There are participants here and indeed, a writer who supports gun ownership. We’ve been able to share how supporting gun ownership does not mean not supporting gun control. In other words, by our discussions, we have been able to see that not everything is all or nothing.

              I welcome honest debate and sincere discussion, and there are no winners nor losers as long as the problem still exists. Let me repeat that — no debate has a winner or loser when the problem that is being debated still exists.

              In essence, had I not trusted you, you would have never had a comment approved for posting on the public board.

              Liked by 2 people

            • Seriously?

              It may turn out that I was wrong to accept Aneela and her dads opinion of what they read but this isn’t doing that, it’s actually affirming what they said.

              Going back to how we met disclosing the fact that I have not returned to Twitter and have spent over 20k on lawyers since August ought to explain why I make no apologies for my mistrust of anyone I’ve met online.

              Like

            • Lurking,
              It’s your choice who you allow to influence you. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you state earlier that the girl called you a racist and her mother apologized for her behavior?

              My comment to you was not to trust me — it is that I trust you.

              I believe that you have a measure of trust for me or you would not have come here to post your opinions.

              I understand that the majority of the problem this year came to and happened on Twitter, and that is one of my drawbacks because although I have a Twitter account, I am not a Twitter person. What I’ve come to realize is that different people are drawn to different venues of social media, and most have their own “culture” so to speak. I don’t particularly like venues of communications that limit an idea or opinion to 140 characters of less. It ends up with misunderstandings.

              As I understand it, Twitter was designed to be somewhat like Facebook with people joining in order to communicate with others they know, and for people in business or entertainment to communicate info to their fans and/or customers. It has taken an entirely different turn making it open season on anyone who has a public account.

              I can understand the trauma and emotional distress that comes with having people online take harassment into your personal life. Santiago was on that road last year, and because the person continues to violate the court’s order, Santiago had to return to that road this year. It is a costly road. The extortionists intend that. They want to hurt you in whatever manner they can, including financially.

              I hear your pain.

              Liked by 2 people

          • Yahtzee, thanks for your kind words.

            Liked by 2 people

        • Lurking,
          Truly, asking what an acronym means is not your ignorance. I asked in order to understand. If I have to go to an urban dictionary for the definition, which definition do I choose from the list? I would not want to presume that it means something other than how you intended it. I’ve asked others to define acronyms that they use.

          Back in the day when the “world wide web” was accessed through accounts that allowed only a certain number of minutes per month, acronyms were developed along with emoticons. It meant that people saved time when writing and thus, would not go over the time for their account. Then came text messages, then Twitter, and anyone on the internet or who receives text messages by cell phone, has to be multi-lingo if they want to understand what is being said.

          I don’t want newbies nor seasoned internet users feeling uncomfortable nor intimidated thinking that they have to write in acronyms. This is not text messaging, nor Twitter. It’s a blog.

          Liked by 2 people

        • Lurking,
          Re:

          “I have no shame in my ignorance to your experience, nor my choice to seek a better understanding elsewhere.”

          This speaks volumes, because at no time have you expressed in your comments that you came here for the understanding of anything. There are participants who answer questions, even my own when I want to understand something. I’ve taken your comments to express your opinions. You are free to do so. In fact, you expressed an opinion when you wrote;

          “SMH at folks celebrating these arrests because they look white ….by the same folks who cry racism when POC are arrested and prosecuted by the same bogus standards.”

          I did not approach that part of your comment because you made absolutely no reference to anything ON THIS BLOG indicating that we “cry racism” when people of color are arrested and prosecuted on bogus standards. Actually, very few of the posts here report on arrests, because the “suspect” usually ends up dead. I recall reporting on the case of David Castellani. It involved the use of excessive force. On video, law enforcement is seen bum-rushing David, kicking, beating him, and allowed a K-9 to maul him after he was restrained. There was no discussion of race. Let me throw out the names of some other victims that I’ve blogged about who are not people of color;
          Patricia Cook; Ethan Saylor; John Wrana; Kristiana Coignard; Andy Lopez, Kelly Thomas; Misty Holt-Singh; Nathan Andrew Clark; Theresa Sheehan; Douglas Buckley; Tamra Seidle; Dillon Taylor; David Kassick; James Boyd; Chris Oulson. There are more, but I hope you get the picture.

          Why bring this up? Because I know there are people who misrepresent this blog and thus, misrepresent me as a “black racist” and “BGI.” The same people originally accused me of being an old White woman who would run at the sight of seeing a black youth who looked like Trayvon Martin. Not once have I shared the color of my skin on this blog and telling one’s color is not a requirement here. It is my desire that we get to know each other by the content of our character because frankly, there is only one race — human.

          I blog about cases when people are killed by members of law enforcement, regardless of their race. I blog about Black cops who are charged, (or not charged) as well as White cops who are charged, or not charged. I blog about trials where members of law enforcement are acquitted, as well as found guilty. Is it possible to discuss these cases without discussing race, particularly when more Blacks, mostly men, are killed when unarmed and the killer is not held accountable? If it walks like a duck …

          When I posted about the indictments, I mentioned the photo because for me, it speaks volumes on how people, who were present during murders, were sitting casually using their cell phones. I remember that when Sandra Bland was arrested for not putting out her cigarette, that a cop tossed her cell phone on the truck of her car. Both happened in the same state; Texas. I remember the photos of protesters, and not just in Ferguson, who were met with militarized police in full military uniform, as compared to the photo from Waco where one cop is standing with a rifle, and his back turned.

          Sorry, but since I’m on the soapbox, please allow me to address hypocrisy. The “innocent until proven guilty” has mostly been said by those supporting law enforcement, and for that benefit. It seems to be just the opposite now regarding the Waco bikers. The “innocent until proven guilty” is being said about them, rather than the cops. Corruption? Unfair investigation? Unlawful arrests? It might all be involved, with no one being held accountable for the 9 who were killed. What makes this so important when all along, people accused of being “anti-cop” have stated that it’s about accountability and not being against any members of law enforcement who have not pulled the trigger taking human life?

          Why is this case of the Waco bikers different? Why shouldn’t those who believe there was a conspiracy by law enforcement to cause that carnage not being called “cop haters”? And why, why are those who believe that there is something flaky in the arrests and charges trying to turn to “social justice warriors” to raise that banner after they have done everything to slander and wrongfully accuse those who have been blowing the trumpet for years now?

          That is what I’m trying to understand.

          Liked by 3 people

          • The fact that I showed up was my statement of seeking understanding. This response seeking to hold me accountable for a kitchen sink full of crap other people did makes me regret respecting your stated preference of knowing vs not knowing why people unsubscribe from your blog.

            I wish you and your readers well.

            Like

            • Lurking,

              “The fact that I showed up was my statement of seeking understanding.”

              what

              Do you mean understanding of yourself or what is being blogged? Please, there is no ill intent with my question. I’m sincerely trying to understand what you mean. What did I miss?

              Re:

              “This response seeking to hold me accountable for a kitchen sink full of crap other people did … “

              No Lurking, it was that portion of your comment. Where did that come from; how did you form that opinion if you didn’t base it on accusations against this blog? If you formed that opinion on your own, what is it based on?

              Re:

              “… me regret respecting your stated preference of knowing vs not knowing why people unsubscribe from your blog.”

              Where have I ever stated any preference of knowing or not knowing why people unsubscribe? I have no control over people subscribing or unsubscribing. Blackbutterfly7 was opened in August 2012. It’s now November 2015. You are the first and only person who has unsubscribed who publicly announced it and inferred that it has something to do with how you are made to feel here. 2dogsonly said she was “unfollowing” but she has not unsubscribed. She must have been referring to Twitter.

              Liked by 1 person

  12. chuquestaquenumber1

    To lurkingresearcher,
    I’m responding since I was the person who mentioned white Waco biker gangs.

    As I stated earlier,if you went to certain right wing websites(their identification) they took the side of the people accused of crimes. They were anti Waco police. These sites for the most part are pro police,especially when it’s high profile cases of blacks being killed (unarmed or not). Therefore, you should ask ,How can people now side with criminals involved in the shooting of 9wounding of18?Also if every time Black Lives Matter can be linked to a black person accused of shooting a cop, when GMA&CNN show reports of Waco biker gangs issuing threats to kill cops in retaliation for the arrests of those in the twin peaks shootout. It’s equally important to identify the criminals. I only identified the criminals ,UNLIKE those that link BLM,Pres Obama,Rev Sharpton,etc to any black person accused of killing a cop.
    Xena you are so correct on Breitbart support for the Waco biker gangs. This is the same site that had weeks of articles on a Muslim kid unjustly arrested for building a clock. Implying that the kid was part of the Islamic terrorist cabal.

    Liked by 3 people

    • I can’t speak for those sites and nothing you said offended me in anyway. I was challenged because my comment did or may have caused issues for some. The inclusion of your comment was incidental to the challenge and I shared my thoughts then.

      My position is that every time someone rationalizes deviating from the rigid standards intented to preserve innocence until proven guilty that system is undermined.

      Standing against the glaring justice System flaw of LE rationalizing deviating from essential rigid standards is not about supporting these bikers. My stand is zero tolerance for any rationalization because they all produce the same result with varied consequences. Innocent people are jailed and the guilty walk on technicalities. Every technicality can be traced back to a rationalized deviation.

      If Waco gets away with collectively charging these bikers without an investigation into each individual what’s to stop Texas from doing the same to gangs elsewhere? Look at the organized crime requirements. Three or more. Keep in mind these are federal charges so any state or municipality can use these to end around their jurisdictional limitations.

      Been to a mall lately? Seen signs that prohibit groups of three or more loitering? So I’m asking myself questions like did LE intend to arrest all the gang members on organized crime charges without investigation when they set up w SWAT an hour in advance of the meeting or were prior crimes used to rationalize deviating from essential rigid standards.

      Did they plan use these charges then seek indictments to force plea bargains aka garner witness testimony from gang members without regard to what happened at that meeting? They let patrons go with contact info to get witness statements at a later time, does a prior criminal history remove that right of freedom?

      Bottom line my choice to leave is because I’m not willing to filter every comment I make because it might offend in translation nor do I think anyone here ought not say what they like unfiltered.

      Like

    • Chuquest,
      “Xena you are so correct on Breitbart support for the Waco biker gangs. This is the same site that had weeks of articles on a Muslim kid unjustly arrested for building a clock. Implying that the kid was part of the Islamic terrorist cabal.”

      Breitbart’s reputation is impugned. They do not reach across the aisle for a common cause.

      Liked by 1 person

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